Author Topic: Where does the silver go? (How currency enters and leaves our world)  (Read 2176 times)

Alexander VII

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Re: Where does the silver go? (How currency enters and leaves our world)
« Reply #15 on: 24 April, 2017, 11:08:01 AM »
I shall then.

In light of the more limited resources, would it not be prudent for the governing officials to "sell" work permits for a given duration, paid in advance by the receiving player/guild?
This does suggest some randomizing factor as most monarchs do not know every other player's stats. However, it also places some risk on the contract lessee, who may not be so lucky or skilled for the task.
Of course it also relieves the governing official of some responsibility as it means the timer and not the quantity make the monitoring easier for determining abuse.

Would a guild system also work as a "pay in advance" system?

I mean, in effect this is already the system regarding livestock and farms, isn't it? The durations are known in advance.
Faith Defines All Things; their remembrances clearly defined make them living custom.

(RIP) Kyle Graham

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Re: Where does the silver go? (How currency enters and leaves our world)
« Reply #16 on: 25 April, 2017, 05:58:21 AM »
I had to think on this one a bit.

I agree that it would be prudent with the tightening of resources for the steward of the resource to govern and protect its availability for its citizens. 

In my mind, I feel like the implementation of the guild governed by the customs officer appointed by the vassal is in effect a way of issuing permits to gather a resource.  Certainly requiring the guild put their resources on the market for sale ensures revenue for the vassal in the form of tax.  Now, if someone outside of the guild wishes to gather the resource not to be put on the market, then a permit should be sold.  Additionally, if the guild fails to provide adequate resource for the populace then a change of the persons of the guild may be required and a position in the guild may be sold or temporarily permitted.

I don't believe that requiring a guild to pay for their permit may be beneficial as this may impede the desire to be employed in the profession.  The draw of a guaranteed and profitable employ should be encouraged and not impeded by an additional tax outside of the market itself.

In effect, you are correct in that animal husbandry does require the spend of silver, however, these resources are typically linked to the production of food which is in constant consumption and the spend of silver is of small consequence as it may be made up quickly.  Other resources are typically not guaranteed as much of a turn over and are generally not as safe an investment.

Your bringing up of this topic actually leads me to a question about the original topic of posting.  When a cow farm is purchased for production where does the silver go  from this purchase?  Does this go back to the vassal owning the resource or does this silver go into the ether?  This could be another dangerous consumer of currency removing much silver from the hands of those who seek to produce the most commonly consumed good being food.... 

(RIP) Michael Soldano

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Re: Where does the silver go? (How currency enters and leaves our world)
« Reply #17 on: 25 April, 2017, 11:27:11 PM »
Let us return to the specialization material then:

When a specific task has a better result based on skills, would it be wise to "Guilde" them and assign members training targets for membership (or even right to own shops) or does such a distinct control become unnecessary or worse....restrictive of new player enthusiasm?



There are two basic "guilds" in ME.  One is the craftsman guild, where say all the potters join together.   Those type of guilds typically don't really do much.  The other type is the merchants.  Those actually can work, because 1) everyone in the game ultimately is a merchant, and 2) allows allows craftspeople to easily place and fill orders for needed raw materials.

The laissez faire system we have now of players deciding their own path seems to work okay, although it can be rough for new players.  Enough goods are being produced to meet demand.

One type of co-operative guild that may exist, but I've never seen one, would work from the bottom up.  For example, mining salt for soup is most efficient by person with high  constitution and strength.  Gathering wood though, is best with high strength and dexterity.   So if individuals were assigned strictly to tasks that aligned best with their attributes, there could be some savings.

The primary economic problem with the game as I see it is the liquidity trap.   I can see a number of ways of fixing this, basically by incentivising regents to spend money.   One suggestion that has been offered many times is roads.  A regent pays to build and maintain roads, which decreases travel time for players.   

Another idea along those lines are brigands who would attack travelers on the roads.   A regent could spend money on security for the road.   The better the security, the lower the percentage of attack.   You could do the same thing for sea routes and pirates.  Regents who didn't invest in through own countries presumably would lose population, or perhaps the population would become disgruntled and revolt, demanding better government services.     Investment would also be a justification for taxes--which at the current time there isn't much of one, other than simple greed.     






Alexander VII

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Re: Where does the silver go? (How currency enters and leaves our world)
« Reply #18 on: 26 April, 2017, 08:51:40 AM »
Master graham and Master Soldano,

On this matter I am not sure you have expanded the review far enough. You see, just because the guild recovers the resource within a vassal or monarch's domain, does not mean they are required to sell said goods within the same. That is why I had suggested the pre-purchase writs for a known quantity. Having recovered the product without payment may in the end benefit the kingdom not one copper fenning besides the chance purchase of foodstuffs or tools. (Any of which may be bought in a separate kingdom altogether) If it is recovered for free, and sold in distant lands....how would that benefit the owning nobles or their kingdom and citizens?

Since monitor of the resource , if done adequately, could detail the withdrawals then of not paid in advance how about a contracted and legally forced donation of a percentage to the vassal? Would this upset the economics? Where is the balancing mechanism in this arrangement so that the nation who must defend the resource also is guaranteed to benefit from it on the whole?

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In my own clergy there are a few ways to help with the coin as you have said. In doing each kingdom a full service on goods there is only the prayers to gain our coin for cloth, and implements of our faith if we keep the same market values (varied though they are) for the items at their local markets.
Believe me, I have been ruminating on how to not dishonor our fair partnership with the monarchs and governments, while still not becoming beggars for alms.
My impression is this:If more citizens provided alms their FP would grow and the coin could go directly back as the goods could be bought at market instead of constructed within the clergy-to-clergy system. The alms leave the individual hands but are spent once again in their own markets! This also reduces the immediate effect of shortfalls in the church as we could use a Point of Sale Supply System instead of Rolling Inventory driven purchases. Isn't a more fluid market the better choice instead of barter and exchange after all?

Faith Defines All Things; their remembrances clearly defined make them living custom.

(RIP) Michael Soldano

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Re: Where does the silver go? (How currency enters and leaves our world)
« Reply #19 on: 27 April, 2017, 04:50:40 AM »
Master graham and Master Soldano,

On this matter I am not sure you have expanded the review far enough. You see, just because the guild recovers the resource within a vassal or monarch's domain, does not mean they are required to sell said goods within the same. That is why I had suggested the pre-purchase writs for a known quantity. Having recovered the product without payment may in the end benefit the kingdom not one copper fenning besides the chance purchase of foodstuffs or tools. (Any of which may be bought in a separate kingdom altogether) If it is recovered for free, and sold in distant lands....how would that benefit the owning nobles or their kingdom and citizens?

Since monitor of the resource , if done adequately, could detail the withdrawals then of not paid in advance how about a contracted and legally forced donation of a percentage to the vassal? Would this upset the economics? Where is the balancing mechanism in this arrangement so that the nation who must defend the resource also is guaranteed to benefit from it on the whole?

Yes, that would benefit the vassal at the expense of the workers.  But I don't see why vassals currently need any economic help. 

Alexander VII

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Re: Where does the silver go? (How currency enters and leaves our world)
« Reply #20 on: 27 April, 2017, 06:57:00 AM »
My remark, sir was not to aide the vassal personally or particularly. My remark was that it is a proper support of the kingdom, via the offices of the vassal.
You have not addressed yet the harm of free mining and then foreign sales that is possible without advance purchase though...and that monitoring is solely done by the vassal.
No matter who else a guilde names, the only player who "sees" the resource level accurately is the Vassal, unless the one dogma is adopted and the character has a high intelligence and Faith. (Most governments are afraid of this dogma because the viewing can be done by foreigners also.)
Faith Defines All Things; their remembrances clearly defined make them living custom.