Author Topic: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland  (Read 12817 times)

(RIP) Karmilw Al-Dharna

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Re: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland
« Reply #15 on: 28 September, 2015, 06:28:20 PM »
Ascoltò gli interventi ed era deciso a rispondere Carmelo

Cari fratelli voi avete ragione, non si devono abbandonare i bisogni di una comunità, ma ditemi invece, dovremmo lasciare altre comunità mancanti di determinati prodotti privi di poter crescere? Se a voi Don Mattia vi venisse a mancare cotone e lino cosa fareste?  Li acquistate da un uomo qualunque o lo acquisterestw da un altro prelato riciclandolo? Tutte le nostre comunità non sono autosufficienti, noi dobbiamo puntare invece a farle diventare, dobbiamo fare il modo che abbiano tutto il necessario. Pensate quanta gente potrebbe lavorare attraverso botteghe, terre e specialmente allevamenti di nostra proprietà con il risultato che posso compiere una vita decente. Noi abbiamo bisogno di denari per i finanziamenti dei calici sempre più costosi e difficili da reperire. Infine si può condurre l'evangelizzazione anche se si posseggono dei beni, poiché attraverso di quelli potrete pensare al bene non solo di una ma di molte comunità


listened to the speeches and it was decided to meet Carmelo
Dear brothers, you are right, you do not have to abandon the needs of a community, but tell me instead, we should let other communities lacking certain free products to grow? If you were to miss you Don Mattia cotton and linen What would you do? Li bought by an ordinary man or acquisterestw by another prelate recycling it? All of our communities are not self-sufficient, we must focus instead to make them, we must make sure they have everything you need. Think how many people could work through workshops, land and especially our own farms with the result that I can make a decent living. We need money for the financing of the glasses more and more expensive and difficult to obtain. Finally you can lead the evangelization even if you possess the goods, because through the ones you think about the good not only of one but of many communites

(RIP) Lusyfir Alghurab

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Re: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland
« Reply #16 on: 28 September, 2015, 06:57:08 PM »
Lucifero entered the room some minutes before the start of the Council. The first to talk was Carmelo, an african priest that Lucifero knew well. He listened to the other priest, then got up. "Brothers" he started "In my humble opinion, we should cooperate with the kingdoms we live in but at the same time create money for the church. Money that can be used for charity, to help the poors and infirms. One man can help his community, many men can help many more people that need it. We should work together to get the resources needed for our job" concluded, sitting back again.

(RIP) David von Habsburg

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Re: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland
« Reply #17 on: 28 September, 2015, 07:30:30 PM »
David rises from his seat, bows to the clergy and says:

I can see where this first proposal comes from, but I think we can either (1) focus on ONE or TWO key economic aspects and create measures to effectively implement them or (2) prioritise more important things.

The proposal comes from good intentions:
a. Without money the church cannot function, and we cannot support greater initiatives. Therefore we definitely need money.
b. We need better cooperation between clergy to create a good community.

Therefore, I propose:
(1) Focus
Let us focus on selling certain things, or making money through 1 or 2 ways. If we focus, we can achieve. I will happily lead one economic task force, to make money in a certain way. Before the last pope retired, I was nominated as a Treasurer to keep the purse of the church. I will be happy to try to do that again if the clergy gives me its trust. (OOC: if not, I am happy to just continue to be a half-active character no problem with that haha)

(2) Prioritise other things first
We have a list of good things. It will be a tragedy if, in a bid to achieve everything, we achieve nothing. I think if there are easier things to do, to prove that this church can run, we should do them. Actually, some of the other proposals can be merged with this "make money together for the church" idea - for example we can sell bibles, we can charge for marriage ceremonies, we can charge for entrance into the "Hall of Fame".


David bows and sits.

Wolfram Adelmannsfelden

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Re: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland
« Reply #18 on: 29 September, 2015, 01:29:42 AM »
I have been a religious for some time now and have seen both a centralized church and a region specific church. At those extremes, nothing seems to work well because it distances both clergy and laity. We must find a common ground in which to work and gather new members while addressing needs of the kingdoms we serve. Since we serve our regions, we know what is best for them and how the kingdom takes to religion. In my region, I would know what would help the citizens very well because I have been here and spoken to them. Things that happen in southern Europe may not necessarily work in northern Europe, and vice versa. The church must not have an economy other than providing what it can to the local churches to help them complete their work. This may be in terms of Chalices and such. However, the church must have a treasury to finance the needs of its members. We must find a way to consolidate our funds into a pot that can be distributed those churches that are in need or to finance any projects for the greater good. Our members can complete this by having a shop and/or fields that they can contribute to the local region's market. Then, perhaps, a certain amount be retained for the church treasury. I am very open to any changes or opinions on this. Thank you.

Matteo Lubiani

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Re: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland
« Reply #19 on: 29 September, 2015, 09:04:38 AM »
Il Pontefice resto sorpreso della risposta di Padre Mattia e del Cardinale Dietmar, ma resto più deluso di coloro che non proferirono parola.
A chi per ora ha fatto solo da pubblico, vi invito a prendere parola.
Padre Mattia, i vestiti da voi prodotti sono stati donati ai figli di Teos o venduti? Il lino, il cotone e il cuoio con quali soldi li avete acquistati? Soldi del Regno di Siena o vostri? E i soldi,  fossero del Regno o vostri non sono frutto di commercio?  sapete benissimo che la chiesa non ha abbastanza donazioni per far fronte appieno al suo ruolo. Vestiti, cibo, cure mediche, battessimo...con quali fondi vorreste ricoprire tali spese? Non parlo di arricchire la chiesa ma di darle modo di svolgere appieno il suo ruolo.
Monsignor Dietmar, voi appoggiate padre Mattia, ma ditemi, con quali fondi pensate di ricostruire il vescovado e la chiesa distrutte in Sassonia? I mattoni, le pietre, il legno...forse vi vengono regalate? O credete che vadano acquistate? E ditemi, fossero regalate, sarebbe un dono di qualche regno o dei produttori locali? Le nostre strutture in buona parte esistono grazie ai reggenti,  che ci hanno donato, acquistando dai loro produttori, i beni necessari. Beni che noi stessi avremmo dovuto avere, ma di cui siamo privi. Se un domani il regno di Urbino o il regno di Inghilterra o un qualsiasi regno non teologico, dovesse darci modo di costruire a nostre spese delle chiese, secondo voi cosa dovremmo fare? Rinunciare per mancanza di fondi? Chiedere e sperare che qualcuno ci aiuti? O avere le risorse, costruire e evangelizzare?

Io mi attengo al volere della maggioranza e per fortuna,  la maggioranza, ha deciso la necessità di avere una economia unica. Nulla vi vieta di produrre per i vostri regni, di avere un vostro mercato, ma vi si chiede solo di non abbandonare la chiesa a se stessa. Essere preti, vescovi o Cardinali, non vuol dire solo avere un luogo comodo in cui riposare, ciò comporta anche dei doveri e delle responsabilità, a cui tutti noi dobbiamo attenerci e dimostrare di esserne degni.

Monsignore David, spetta a me decidere il tesoriere e sono lieto di conferiti tale nomina.
Hai la libertà di organizzare come meglio credi la costituzione di commerci e gestione delle economie pontificie. Avrai solo l'obbligo di aggiornarmi ogni due settimane della situazione e tenermi informato sui problemi che tu possa trovare.

Ora, il secondo punto della giornata è strettamente legato al primo:

2)CREAZIONI DI SCORTE PONTIFICIE DI BENI CON ACQUISTO AGEVALATO PER IL BENE DELLE COMUNITÀ TEOLOGICHE (KIT MEDICI, FORMAGGI, PILLOLE, VESTIARIO IN PRIMIS).
Reputate giusto che la Chiesa di Teos abbia dei beni di prima necessità per far fronte alle eventuali richieste di bisognosi?
Ci possiamo e dobbiamo occupare di chi, per nascita o difficoltà di vita, ha bisogno di vestiti, cibo e cure?
A voi la parola.


The Pontiff rest surprised of the response of Father Matthias and Cardinal Dietmar, but I remain disappointed most of those who uttered word.
To those who for now has made only from the public, I invite you to take the word.
Father Matthias, the clothes you products were donated to the children of Teos or sold? Linen, cotton and leather with what money you bought them? Money of the Kingdom of Siena or yours? And the money, they were the Kingdom or not the result of your trade? you know very well that the church does not have enough donations to meet fully its role. Clothes, food, medical care, christening ... with what funds you would like to cover these expenses? I do not speak to enrich the church but to enable it to play its full role.
Monsignor Dietmar, you supported father Matthias, but tell me, with what funds you plan to rebuild the diocese and the church destroyed in Saxony? The bricks, stones, wood ... perhaps you are given away? Or do you think should be bought? And tell me, were given away, it would be a gift of some kingdom or local producers? Our facilities are in good part thanks to the regents, who have given us, buying by the suppliers, the necessary goods. Goods that ourselves we should have, but that we lack. If tomorrow the kingdom of Urbino or the kingdom of England, or any non-theological realm, should give us a way to build at our expense of the churches, in your opinion what should we do? Give up for lack of funds? Ask and hope that someone help us? Or have the resources, build and evangelize?

I adhere to the will of the majority, and fortunately, the majority decided the need to have a single economy. Nothing will stop you produce for your kingdoms, to have a your market, but you are asked not only to leave the church herself. Be priests, bishops or cardinals, not just about having a comfortable place to rest, this also implies duties and responsibilities, which we all have to stick and prove worthy of it.

Monsignor David, for me to decide the treasurer and I am pleased conferred such appointment.
You have the freedom to organize as you wish the establishment of businesses and management of papal economies. You'll have only the obligation to update me every two weeks the situation and keep me informed about the issues that you can find.

Now, the second point of the day is closely related to the first:

2) CREATION OF GOODS PAPAL STOCKS WITH SPECIAL OFFERS FOR THE THEOLOGICAL KINGDOMS (MEDICAL KIT, CHEESE, PILLS AND CLOTHES IN PRIMIS)

Deemed right that the Church of Teos has the basic necessities to meet the requests of the needy?
We can and we must deal with those who, by birth or difficulties in life, need clothes, food and health?
Have your say.

(RIP) Mattia dei Conti di Segni

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Re: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland
« Reply #20 on: 29 September, 2015, 12:00:22 PM »
Mattia non era convinto delle parole del papa e prese nuovamente parola.

"Santità prima di cambiare punto decidiamo cosa fare, quello che lei dice poi nella pratica di tutti i giorni non è stato organizzato, come possiamo solo con qualche intervento decidere solo in linea teorica come cambiare il futuro della chiesa?

Per rispondere alla vostra domanda, ho dato lavoro ad un nuovo senese che era fuggito da Roma ed era in cerca di una nuova casa. Gli ho prestato i soldi per coltivare lino e cotone che poi vendeva a me per creare i vestiti per i bisognosi. Nel giro di poco tempo si è reso autonomo ridandomi i soldi che gli avevo prestato. Penso che sia questo quello che dobbiamo fare, aiutare i bisognosi, e far si che i bisognosi crescano e si rendano autonomi per poter aiutare a loro volta il prossimo.

La mia proposta è questa:
Ogni prelato avrà la sua bottega, campo o allevamento. Ci sarà un responsabile economico della chiesa, sua eminenza Monsignore David, che avrà la lista di ogni attività gestita dai prelati. Ogni prelatò avra come priorità la soddisfazione delle esigenze della sua parrocchia, e le eccedenze potranno essere messe a disposizione di Monsignor David che indirizzerà tali eccedenze verso chi può averne bisogno con prezzi di favore.

Cosa ne pensate?"










Mattia was not convinced of the words of the pope and took the word again.

"Your Holiness before changing point we decide what to do, what you say then in practice everyday was not organized, as we can only with some intervention to decide only in theory how to change the future of the church?

To answer your question, I gave work to a new Siena that had fled from Rome and was looking for a new home. I lent him the money to cultivate flax and cotton and sold them to me to create clothes for the needy. In a short time it became independent ridandomi the money he had borrowed. I think that's what we have to do, help the needy, and ensure that those in need will grow and they become autonomous to help turn the next.

My proposal is this:
Each bishop has his workshop, field or farm. There will be an official statement of the church, His Eminence Monsignor David, who will have the list of all activities handled by the prelates. Each bishop will have as a priority the satisfaction of the needs of his parish, and the surplus will be made available to Monsignor David who will direct these surpluses to those who may need it with favorable rates.

What do you think?"

(RIP) David von Habsburg

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Re: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland
« Reply #21 on: 29 September, 2015, 12:12:23 PM »
David rises and bows

Thank you your holiness I humbly accept the responsibility. I will submit a proposal to your holiness to detail my economic plans soon. I have read Monsignor Mattia's suggestion and I believe we can revisit this question and decide the details together (with Monsignor Mattias) at the end of this meeting when I write my proposal. I think it is good enough that we get everyone's agreement that this is a good idea - the details will need to be discussed further.

On the question of (2) Creation of Papal Stocks, I believe, again, that the intention is good – we want to be able to help those in need – however, we cannot do that without a good steady stream of income. Unfortunately we don’t have that. Maybe after the economic plans succeed can we provide this service in issue (2).

Alternatively, we can ask for wealthy people to give donations. For example, those with worn clothes can donate the clothes to the church so that we can give them out for free. We will need a good system to administer and give these stuff out.

If some other clergyman is willing to take up the task of being the person in charge of this item, that will be helpful. Maybe at the end of this meetings, we can distribute the roles that need to be filled, and the targets to be met. However, we may discover then, that not everything can be done at the same time. We may need to prioritise and focus on 2 or 3 issues first.
« Last Edit: 29 September, 2015, 01:03:01 PM by David von Habsburg »

(RIP) Axel Richard von Fersen-Bourbon

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Re: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland
« Reply #22 on: 29 September, 2015, 12:59:49 PM »
Axel arrived in Själland a bit late in his new red robe as cardinal. As soon as he received the anointing as cardinal, he left towards Ile de France to take possession of his new office. Now he was back in Själland to attend to the council.
Since he was late, when he entered in the hall where the council was summoned, the discussion was already began. As he sat at his place among the other cardinals, a clerk brought him a report, this way he was able to know on which matters the council has already deliberated.

Once he finished to read, he stood, bowed his head for the Supreme Pontiff and said: "Most Holy Father, dear brothers cardinals, bishops and clerics be greeted. I do agree with the decision the Council has just made: the Church must have an own economy and therefore, for sure, it must also have some stockpiles. I do also agree with my brother cardinals von Eppstein, von Habsburg and Adelmannsfelden and with Father Mattia. The Church should not produce goods for itself.We have to produce for and in cooperation with the communities and Kingdoms who host us. We have to be involved in the life of our flock and must be able to satisfy the needs of those who cry for our help. Therefore, I believe, as cardinal von Habsburg said, we should focus on producing and selling certain things, as for example food. In this way, we will be able to raise some money and to feed the poors as well.
But we should be able as well to produce the raw materials needed to build our structures, when needed. As His Holiness said, in this case it is not fair for us relying only on donations of our believers. I believe that also helping to provide those materials is a form of cooperation with our communities. Shortly, this is my point of view: we should produce and sell not to raise money for ourselves, but to be able to help our fellow countrymen. The Church should not be selfish and self-referential, but always remember that its mission is to help those who surround her in an harmonious cooperation, whichever their needs might be
".

Once he finished his speech, he bowed again to the Holy Father sat down.


(RIP) David von Habsburg

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Re: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland
« Reply #23 on: 29 September, 2015, 01:05:08 PM »
[OOC reply just to clarify - when i wrote "items" in my post above - i meant "issues". I have corrected the post. My meaning is that although issue (2) is important, we have to wait until the end of this council meeting, to decide upon the one, two, or three issues to focus upon first. I believe, that issue (2) should wait until after issue (1) is done - it is only when the church has money/goods that we can decide how to give it out.]

Matteo Lubiani

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Re: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland
« Reply #24 on: 29 September, 2015, 03:45:30 PM »
Figli miei,
qui noi dobbiamo decidere solo qual'è la strada da seguire.
Da quello che ho capito, la maggioranza è favorevole a creare una coordinazione ecclessiastica sulla produzione dei beni. Cosa produrre e in che quantità verrà stabilito in un secondo tempo da una apposita commissione. Noi tutti produrremo, in accordo con le autorità locali, beni di prima necessità e i soldi delle vendita saranno usati per calici, strutture e risorse prime necessarie.
È ovvio che servirà tempo e dedizione per realizzare il progetto. Occorre però che tutti noi ci incamminiamo nella stessa direzione. Di quello depositato, donato, venduto o acquistato,  verrà pubblicamente comunicato. Ogni azione di acquisto e vendita sarà deciso dal Pontefice, dal Tesoriere e dai loro consiglieri. Cosa produrre e vendere sarà concordato con chi produce  e nel rispetto del Regno ospitante.
Riassumendo:
Siete favorevoli a un commercio come chiesa e a creare depositi per i bisognosi e per le necessità della Chiesa?


- My sons,
Here we have to decide just what is the way forward.
From what I understand, the majority is in favor of creating a coordination Ecclesiastical on the production of goods. What to produce and in what amounts will be established at a later time by a special commission. We all produce, according to local authorities, basic necessities and the money of the sale will be used to glasses, structures and resources necessary raw.
It is obvious that it will take time and dedication to do the project. It should, however, that all of us we are moving in the same direction. Of the deposited, donated, sold or purchased, will be publicly announced. Each share purchase and sale will be decided by the Pope, the Treasurer and their advisers. What to produce and sell it will be agreed with the producer and in compliance with United host.
In summary:
Are you in favor of a trade as a church and create deposits for the needy and for the needs of the Church?

-

(RIP) Karmilw Al-Dharna

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Re: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland
« Reply #25 on: 29 September, 2015, 03:58:18 PM »
Concordo, Santità. Anche per creare scorte che aiutano i bisognosi in carestie e in tempi di guerre

I agree , Your Holiness . Also Create Stocks Which help the needy in times of famine and wars

(RIP) David von Habsburg

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Re: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland
« Reply #26 on: 29 September, 2015, 06:33:55 PM »
David said

Aye, I am in favor of a trade as a church and create deposits for the needy and for the needs of the Church.

(RIP) Lusyfir Alghurab

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Re: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland
« Reply #27 on: 29 September, 2015, 06:35:30 PM »
"I congratulate with brother David and agree with the Pope" Lucifero said.

(RIP) Belle D'aquitaine

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Re: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland
« Reply #28 on: 29 September, 2015, 10:56:09 PM »
Je pense que nous devrions garder un stock de notre production pour pouvoir subvenir aux demandes de notre communauté, mais il faudra lister la production de chacun

Giovanni Da Cingoli

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Re: Concilio di Sjaelland /council of Sjaelland
« Reply #29 on: 30 September, 2015, 12:11:09 AM »
Oil burned in black iron lanterns all along the walls ; Giovanni made a nod to the servants letting them to serve some flagons of wine to all the members of the Clergy , then he took the word.

"Welcome to all , I trust you enjoyed your journey ", he said to the whole assembly .

We have very important office to discuss but , please, accept some wine for a short halt , before going on, and don't hesitate to contact me , during your stay in Denmark, for whatever necessity , I'll be glad to help you.

Coming to our discussion, now, in my humble opinion , the Holy Father said a great truth : the Church needs a certain economical independence , if we want an instrument for helping poors and if you allow me the comparison....well, think to a castle.
As a castle must have towers wherever two walls meet at an angle , for defense, in the same way we have to be the towers and mae the Church an inexpugnable castle .

So, I agree with the proposal of our brother David , the church needs to increase its trades , for being able to provide to its own needs and to the other ones. /color]

Giovanni looked at his brothers in faith and waited for their answers , giving them the time to taste the wine.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

L'olio bruciava nelle nere lanterne di ferro, lungo i muri ; Giovanni fece un cenno ai servitori per servire del vino a tutti i membri del clero e poi prese la parola .

"Benvenuti a tutti, spero abbiate fatto un buon viaggio e vi prego di accettare del buon vino per fare una piccola sosta, prima di continuare a discutere tutte le importanti materie che abbiamo da esaminare, e non esitate a contattarmi per qualsiasi vostra necessita' durante il soggiorno in Danimarca, saro' lieto di aiutarvi", disse all'intera assemblea .

Secondo il mio umile parere , il Santo Padre ha detto una grande verita' : la Chiesa ha bisogno di una certa indipendenza economica se vuole avere lo strumentoper aiutare i poveri e se mi permettete il paragone , bene...pensate ad un castello.

Come un castello deve avere delle torri nel punto d'incontro di due muri che formano un angolo , per difesa, allo stesso modo noi dobbiamo essere le torri e fare della Chiesa un castello inespugnabile .

Quindi, sono d'acordo con la proposta del nostro fratello David , la chiesa deve incrementare il commercio per poter provvedere alle sue necessita'e a quelle degli altri 
.

Giovanni guardo' i suoi fratelli nella fede ed attese le loro risposte ,dando loro il tempo di gustare il vino .

« Last Edit: 30 September, 2015, 12:22:27 AM by Giovanni Da Cingoli »