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=> Topic started by: (RIP) Pragr Od Budweis on 02 October, 2017, 03:33:49 PM

Title: Divorce request
Post by: (RIP) Pragr Od Budweis on 02 October, 2017, 03:33:49 PM
Your Holiness,  Your Eminences.

I open the hearing in case of divorce request I got from the Lord Michael X, Freiherr von Obenaus and his wife Princess Celestina Asen.  I haven't been in office when this couple was married. Nor I have been informed about any issues regarding this relationships. I got the message from Archduke Michael regarding the divorce when I was in my office for just a few days. Hence the only way I can make up my mind is from the information I was provided by spouses and his Excelence, bishop Istvan Hunyadi. According to that and particularly to the fact that Princess Celestina does not agree with the divorce, I personally consider the divorce as unacceptable.

The side's arguments will be listed below, either by each relevant side or as copy make by myself.
Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: (RIP) Istvan Hunyadi on 02 October, 2017, 05:24:06 PM
Your Holyness, dear brothers and sisters

Wiki about marriage annulment:
a) Character that requests the Annulment must previously advise his / her partner by sending an Annulment Letter
b) Marriages annulments of Kings must be celebrated by Religion 2 Levels (Cardinals) or the Religion Leader.
c) Religion Leader can decide whether cancellations are allowed or not.
d) The price of an annulment will be established by the Church management.

Ad a) The Annulment letter does not require consent as a request for marriage, but the Church should know the answer to this letter. We need to know opinion of the other side (Princess of Bohemia, Peeress Celestina Asen).
When she do not agree, we will have a lighter job and rely on her decision to reject the annulment.
Mariage in this game has only a small advantage, resting in the buildings of the spouse, but alone.
But is divorce really in the interest of the Church?
Is the marriage in this game only a choice or has a deeper meaning?
We should treat each case differently with consideration for all For and Against, and especially in the interest of the Church. 
Ad c) Although the change in the status of this marriage will have no effect on the relations between the kingdoms, I do not recommend canceling it  even if Lady Celestina agrees.
Ad d) It might also help to keep the marriage/s a sufficiently high price of divorce - the king over of 10000sc or to renouncing the throne.

I suggest marriage of His Majesty Michael X Freiherr von Obenaus, Archuch of Austria and Lady Celestina Asen, princess of Bohemia to preserve to give them more time to settle disagreements.

Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: (RIP) Pragr Od Budweis on 02 October, 2017, 09:54:28 PM
I add the message I got from his lordship Michael X, Freiherr von Obenaus:

Dear Pragr Od Budweis,

last days i was realy busy with managing Austria.
Today i searched about Celestinas messages and of course she is willing to be divorced:

Why you asked me to marry me? When i waited for baby you told me no kids and you know you spend some time in Wienn with me and when you spend this time with me you told me you want to have a boy. And after all this, you told me no kids. Ok, Ill aske kardinal to divorse us. You deserve it.

So i do think that both of us are willing to get divorced. If Celestina changes her mind please consider her written words above.

mit herzlichem Gruße - Best Regards

Erzherzog von Österreich - Archduke of Austria
Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: (RIP) Pragr Od Budweis on 02 October, 2017, 09:55:45 PM
And there is the message from Princess Celestina Asen:

Good evening father Pragr. I was married my husband and Teos blessed my marriage. My husband is only one man I have. I do not have reason to divorce him. Please if you still want to divorce us, tell me reason why my husband want to divorce me. Ill try to say if I agree with him or not.

Vassal of Praha
Countess of Praha
Knight of Ordo Santi Václav
Princess - Kingdom of Bohemia
Princess - Archduchy of Austria
Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: (RIP) Alexander VII on 04 October, 2017, 07:54:45 AM
We have reviewed the materials provided and we have one course of action remaining.

It does appear that the couple no longer resides together. We would like the matter of location and visitation reviewed.

It does also appear that the marriage was not consummated or at the very least that there has been no sincere effort to conceive an heir to their house.

Marriage is a bonding of two souls, but even as it was in the beginning the Almighty Teos brought man and woman together for companionship and to beget the heirs to His world. Had the Lord Teos Most High believed that there should be no attempts at offspring from the holy matrimony then the Logos would have made sterile every man and woman to rewrite this world at the end of their lives. Teos has not struck all humanity infertile, though so heirs are to be expected.

If the woman refuses conjugal rights  or cannot conceive as Teos intended then this marriage is incomplete.
 It is is apparent also that the Love that was assumed is also not true and equal so the marriage is either in need of repair and guidance or it will only lead to a betrayal in other arms for one of them and such a sin must be averted.

1= The Lady Celestine must consent to bear heirs, that was Teos purpose in providing the blessing of a womb upon womankind.
2= In this case the Lady must make of herself a more sincere commitment to attend the King in his own realm also. As an ambassador she is accustomed, or should be accustomed, to long travels away from her kingdom and conduct of her duties via courier. A monarch, on the other hand cannot attend his or her duties by being greatly away from their subjects.
3= These conditions should have been obvious when she agreed to the contract of sacred matrimony and by her own unforced vows.

If these conditions are not earnestly by the Lady, or if the Lord obstructs her sincere efforts to do so, then this marriage MUST be Annulled for lack of proof of fidelity and conjugal service.

If the Lady denies the repair and proper fulfillment she will be asked to provide remunerations to the church in the form of one mitre and the king will be granted divorce.

If it is proven that the Lord has interfered with the Lady fulfilling these conditions then He shall provide a Mitre and Robe, one Cardinal Robe, One Bishop Robe, and one Priest Robe, and one Lady Gown if he still insists on the divorce. If he will not provide these and has interfered with the repair of the matrimony then the divorce is denied.

If both have decided to end the marriage then the church will insist on the donation of a priest robe and a holy book from each. Only after these are received a period of 30 days in which they should each commit to prayer at least once each day, then in sorrow but sanctity an annulment will be declared on the grounds that it was not consummated in the marital bed.

I ask that His Righteous Emminence, Pragr Od Budweis, make himself available to both husband and wife to help them repair the marriage and to monitor the conditions We have outlined. It is the duty of the Cardinal also to make Our conditions known to both spouses be certain they understand the Sacred nature of Matrimony regardless of the final outcome.

Refusing to Comply will be addressed in a separate decision.

We look forward to the future reports to Our Holy Office on this matter.
Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: (RIP) Pragr Od Budweis on 05 October, 2017, 04:30:02 PM
Your Holiness.

Thank You for  attention and time you had to spent with this sad case. I sent the message to both spouses to support me with additional information Your Holiness would need to know. Now I'm waiting for their messages. Once I get them I published them within this council.

I hope the marriage can be retrieved still. All those arguments I got from both sides built my opinion that there is just not enough effort, understanding and/or communication between both persons.
Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: (RIP) Pragr Od Budweis on 05 October, 2017, 09:46:57 PM
I got answers very fast this time.

This is the one that I was provided by Michael X, Freiherr von Obenaus:
Dear Cardinal Pragr Od Budweis,

we got married the 21-May-1317. We had contact exactly 2 months.
Within this time Celestina Asen visited Vienna 2 times.
I never visited her in Praha, i only passed by due to a trade with King Vlad Staurov.

At the 21-July-1317 Celestina Asen cut off every contact.
Since than we did not have any conversation nor any contact like married couple should have.

I hope i could provide you the needes information to support my wish of divorce.

mit herzlichem Gruße - Best Regards

Erzherzog von Österreich - Archduke of Austria

And this is the translation of what I got from Celestina Asen:
I visited him three times. He never was not in the Praha in my house.

What I can say, it seems that both were absolutely not prepared for marriage and what it means to be a spouse. I will try to change their attitude. With help of Teos, I hope  I could succeed.
Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: (RIP) Pragr Od Budweis on 06 October, 2017, 02:54:43 PM
To hold this council informed.

I sent message to both sides today. I tried to explain to them, that they should not expect their marriage would be happy and functional if they haven't lived together nor communicated with each other (that's just the very short summary of these messages). Although I still think they were not prepared for the marriage, I have high hopes that damage can be repaired should effort will be on both sides.
Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: (RIP) Alexander VII on 07 October, 2017, 09:28:15 AM
One of the worst ideas of marriage is that it can be done from beginning to end at a great distance. Love can be found lasting at a distance, but not growing. New love needs growth to make deep routes. The kisses and affection like rain and the times apart like sunshine. Too much of either will either drown or whither the new life they find. When we look at the kingdoms distances and the prominent roles that each has in their own there is much concern. I had these concerns before the ceremony, but I misunderstood how long these two had known each other romantically.

  As "wise counselors" I rely on the local clergy to keep such items in mind before they officiate a wedding, or ask another member of the clergy to officiate. It does not make blame for a failed marriage, but it does indicate we should be asking the couple to consider the risk and how they will avoid it being the death of a beautiful AND SACRED  union.
Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: Celestina Asen on 10 October, 2017, 08:21:46 PM
Good day. I am here to say what i feel and what i think. Marriage betwin me and MichaelX been blessed by Teos. Pragr od Budweis asking me in his letter about such indiferrent things like how often we visited each other. I think it have nothing to do with marriage cancelling. I am still alive and my husband as well. Only death can end our marriage. Please thank you for listening me.
Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: (RIP) Alexander VII on 11 October, 2017, 10:32:15 PM
Lady Celestine,

  We have blessed the marriage  in the name of Teos. If you cannot respect the Cardinal enough to respond as we instructed him to ask, then we must say you have less of Teos in your opinion than you do have of pride.

  Sumus Pontifex
Alexander VII
Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: Celestina Asen on 16 October, 2017, 06:23:16 PM
Your Hollyness, Pragr is just believer and when he is sending me letters he is talking just about mundane part of marriage. I declin to accept marriage will be annuld like it says wiki, I am thinking about sacred part of marriage.
Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: (RIP) Alexander VII on 18 October, 2017, 01:18:54 AM
Lady Asen and Cardinal od Budweis,

His Righteous Emmenince, Pragr Od Budweis, is an annointed Cardinal of the church Lady Asen. He is not just a believer.
I have already said that he asks questions that I have personally told him to find answers too.

You speak of the divine in the marriage but refuse procreation?
Is that true?

What part of the marriage has been upheld by the king? What part of the marriage has been upheld by the Lady Celestine Asen?

I am giving both one last chance to answer.

If neither have been true to the matrimony in body, mind, spirit, and soul then this matter is soon to be decided by my Holy Office. The end of the week will give enough time for answers before We decide.

Alexander VII
-Sumus Pontifex
Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: Celestina Asen on 16 November, 2017, 04:41:42 PM
Good day. I am respecting my husbands wish not to have children. I am asking him to respect my wish not to visit my bedroom. And as I told befoure, I reject to cancell marriage.
Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: (RIP) Alexander VII on 17 November, 2017, 04:24:53 AM
The picture is clearer now and the Sumus Pontifex now understands something he misinterpreted before. It was the monarch who insisted on no heirs.
As it is his right to name or disavow any heirs for the protection and stability of his kingdom, this would be acceptable. Denying the gifts of Teos where a child is conceived or not righteous at all. Surely this would interfere with the will of heaven. Unthinkable. Of course, it would be the word of the church whether the conception was real or not and any miscarriage is common enough....but to deny the sacred duty of marriage?

   To His Most Righteous Emminence,
   Cardinal Pragr Od Budweis,

    The Holy See has heard enough.  In the matter of an annulment between His Royal Majesty, Michael X Freiherr von Obenaus, Archuch of Austria and Lady Celestina Asen, princess of Bohemia We have reviewed the conditions and behaviors of each.

   Our most Holy and divinely inspired decision is this.

   If the Princess, Celestina Asen, truly regards this as a marriage she cannot refuse the access to her person or residence to her husband.
   If His Royal Majesty, Michael X Freiherr von Obenaus, Archuch of Austria seeks divorce it must be at His cost and great penance, or he will remain betrothed and will allow the Logos, as the divine will of Sacred and Almighty Teos, to bring forth fruit to his nuptuals as is His Heavenly design and not the Archuch personal desire.
 None may know the designs of heaven, except the heirs of Blessed St Rocco. None may oppose the sacred design of Teos either without invoking His divine wroth

 Should there be proof of the conjugal relations between the two, and an heir or heirs  are sired, Our Holy and profound clergy will decide the veracity of the conception to be by the His Majesty or another source.

  Should any offspring be determined to be a true and royal seed, then it will be upon the parents to do their greatest task and to bring the new life, or lives, into the world where they shall care and raise the newborn souls in safest measures as befit a noble of the Royal Blood. The church will supervise as possible for the sake of the souls of all. In the event of a mortality, their will be a righteous inquiry to the nature of the death, and the church will publish the results for the peace of mind of the entire Kingdom,  the parents, and the community of saints. If the child lives to the age of their majority, in fourteen years,  it will then fall to the Royal Court and the Logos to determine the merit of the offspring for inheritance.

  If these terms are not approved for the continuation of the marriage then dire consequences may follow. We, simply mortals all, cannot oppose the divine! If Truly, He has brought together and bonded them, let no true and faithful soul drive apart. If the union was done as a whim of self deceit, OR  If the couple cannot find honest and faithful accommodation between them then the blessing will surely become a curse.

  They may petition this Holy office in One year time, or on the greater feast of the Resurrection, whichever comes most appropriate to the course of events, for a reconsideration of the matter.

  As these have requested, so we have prayed, and so Teos has judged. Amen

"vitam aeternam, fides aeternam, actio semper"
~Alexander VII~

Summus Pontifex - Theological Church
Archbishop of France and Normandy,
Comte de Reims,
Master of theology of Ancient Theological Church

Alexander VII felt that if the Logos touched this union with offspring....all should be praying for the sake of their souls and their parents. Teos would guide them then and the heirs of Blessed St Rocco would do the best by them as the Logos called upon them in the moments of need.

Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: Celestina Asen on 18 November, 2017, 10:27:43 PM
Please do acknowledge our annulment so I can proceed to inform the support.
This letter I recieved from my husband.
I want a public explanation why my husband want to contact support. I never insulted him or used stupid languagege. I start thinking about annulment because I am expecting children from marriage and i have no reason to think I cant have children. I cant have children in this my marriage because my husband dont want.Its a reason i want to divorce. I want to hear a reason why want to divorce my husband.
Title: Re: Divorce request
Post by: Celestina Asen on 24 November, 2017, 10:02:25 AM
Because I do not recieved wedding gift I have nothing to return. I dont want either nothing  back.